skip to Main Content
EP.27 Show Runner – Julie Kratz

EP.27 Show Runner – Julie Kratz

Owner, Author, Speaker & Certified Personal Coach, Educating and Empowering Thought Leaders and Promoting Gender Equality in the Workplace.

We’ve captured Julie Kratz, owner of Pivot Point, right before she stepped on the stage as the Key Note Speaker of the 5th annual Women in Automotive Conference, in this special episode live from Orlando. Julie is a highly-acclaimed leadership trainer who led teams and produced results in corporate America for nearly two decades with companies like Nationwide Insurance, Adayana, and Catapiller Inc.

After experiencing her own career “pivot point,” Julie developed a process to help women leaders create their winning career game plan. Focused on promoting gender equality in the workplace and encouraging women with their “what’s next” moments, Julie, a Certified Master Coach, shares her wisdom and personal examples of inclusive leadership and how we can take charge of our careers, our lives, our purpose, and our path to success.

Julie is the author of both Pivot Point – How to Build a Winning Career Game Plan and How Male Allies Support Women for Gender Equality. Listening to this podcast is like a personal coaching session with Julie as she teaches us how to identify both male and female allies and the key to being intentional and prepared for mentorship and growth. She breaks down today’s workplace challenges and opportunities to help us develop a personal brand through self-awareness and clear communication, as well as how to brand and market a company intentionally for standout results.

Julie Kratz, Owner, Author, Speaker & Certified Personal Coach of Pivot Point

Lessons you will learn from this podcast:

  • How to identify your best male allies by their four common traits
  • Changing the perception of UPL Unpaid labor – breaking down equal pay and work\life integration
  • The difference between empathy vs. sympathy – no superhero capes needed
  • Why women need to self promote and how to do it in a way that’s authentic and resonates
  • What Bropropriation and Mansplaning have to do with female behavior in the workplace
  • The tipping point for gender equality – reaching a critical mass in representation and leadership positions
  • Twitter’s – Flip it to test it – uncovering our own stereotypes and gender biases
  • Inclusion and diversity the secret sauce for doing it right
  • Authentic gender-balanced messages from Cummings, Salesforce, Gillette, and Audi
  • How to build your winning career game plan

>> Cathy Cunningham: Hi, everybody, it’s Cathy, and today is a really special episode. We were honored to be invited to bring the show under marketing podcast to women in automotive convention in Orlando. They asked us to feature some of the stars of the convention. In this episode, we’re coming to you live from Orlando where we captured Julie Kratz of Pivot Point right before she stepped onto the stage of opening day, as the keynote speaker for the Fifth Annual Women in Automotive Conference. Julie was a great choice to open this conference because the goal is educating and empowering a community of thought leaders and promoting workplace environments where you can show up inspired and leave fulfilled. I had a great time and I thought it was an amazing opportunity to network and meet successful professionals like Julie, who are striving for and encouraging others to be their personal best. Let me tell you a little bit about Julie before we bring her on. She’s a highly acclaimed leadership trainer who leads teams and has produced results in corporate America for nearly two decades with Nationwide Insurance, Adneon and Caterpillar Inc. After experiencing her own career Pivot Point, Julie developed a process to help women leaders create their winning career game plan. Focused on promoting gender equality in the workplace and encouraging women with their what’s next moments. Julie is a Frequent Keynote Speaker and Executive Coach. She holds an MBA from the Kelly School of Business at Indiana University, and is a Certified Master Coach. Julie is also the author of Pivot Point, How to Build a Winning Career Game Plan. And her other book, How Allies Support Women for Gender Equality. So here we go. We’re networking with Julie Kratz. Hi everybody, it’s Kathy and today we’re talking with Julie Kratz. Welcome to the show Runner Network.

>> Julie Kratz: Thanks so much for having me, Kathy.

>> Cathy Cunningham: It’s great to be here in Orlando, Florida. Enjoying the weather?

>> Julie Kratz: Oh yeah, I’m looking at this bright beautiful sunshine.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Well I gave an introduction to everybody, Julie. But why don’t you tell us a little bit more about your professional journey in marketing, in business and training?

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah, well, I have my own business, Pivot Point, and we exist to develop inclusive leaders, while also training women to build what we call a winning career game plan, and we’re all about equality in the workplace. So providing tools to help leaders be more inclusive and bring more diversity, equality and inclusion into their skill set. And before that i spent time in Corporate America, so I spent about 12 years. I doing a variety of different functions in different industries which has been really helpful now in the industries I focus on because I have manufacturing experience, financial services experience, technology experience, sales experience, marketing and consulting. So it really helps me in managing my business but also being relevant to my clients. And my greatest purpose really is to help leaders understand how they can be an ally for those that may not be like them. They may be different than them. And not just different looking than them, but also behaving, having different experiences than they might have. Cuz we know, diverse and inclusive teams outperform those that are not. And there is a time data to show ideas are better, decisions are better, business results are better when we have diverse thinking around the table.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right, I mean diversity is such a hot topic, so I’m so excited to get into this questions with you. We hear women in automotive in Orlando, and I’d like to hear from you how does an organization like this change the culture and the expectations and the aspirations of an industry like automotive?

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah, I can certainly speak to many moons ago I was in the automotive industry and like many industries, it is quite male dominated. I always joke, find me a female dominated industry. You might think healthcare, you might think nonprofits or education, but if you look at the top of any of those organizations, they’re very much male dominated.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Wow, that’s funny

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah and in and so yes, I did notice that automotive and working with my clients who look at their C suite and it is primarily caucasian men. There’s usually a woman and maybe HR or marketing but beyond that really there is [UNKNOWN]. And we’re missing out on the talent and the unique perspective that women bring to the table. And most starkly, I think in any industry that’s wanting to focus on this, the business case behind it, think about your customer base. In automotive, who are buying automobiles? Who’s influences these decisions?

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right, women influence 80% of the automotive decisions.

>> Julie Kratz: As they do in most product and service categories. And so When you’re missing that perspective at the decision-making table, you have to question, are we really the most relevant we could be to our consumer base? We could probably do better than that couldn’t we?

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right, great point.

>> Julie Kratz: And some of the limitations we put in the workforce, for example, that just we know don’t work well for women is lack of flexibility in your work schedule. Why do you have to be in a cubicle from 8 to 5? The world has changed a lot since the Mad Men era of the 1950s.

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH]

>> Julie Kratz: And workplace pretty much looks the same. Why do we have to have late night events or after hours team meetings and have drinks and things like that when women are doing the bulk of the childcare? That also needs to change, we need men to step up and be a part of that experience and admire fathers as much as we do motherhood in this country. So lots of barriers certainly I think this industry is really bright for understanding these barriers and what we can do to be better, especially knowing the consumer base is largely female.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah, I think you make a great point with particularly, the automotive industry. So I’m so excited to be here at Women in Automotive. I’d like to hear from you, what’s the most significant leadership challenge that you feel women are facing? And how are you and your team addressing this in 2019?

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah, I think women today I think 2020 is gonna be a really interesting year. So it’s the 100th anniversary of the women’s suffrage movement. So when you think about something like that, it’s only been 100 years since we got the right to vote and actually for women of color. That wasn’t the case until the 1960s, which most people don’t even know about. But if you think about that as 150 years ago these experiences, where are we today in 2019? Well, what we know to be true is that there still very few women CEOs, there’s very few women in the C suite and on board positions that influence how decisions are made in this country even with a record year in Congress this year, we’re at 23% female. And so we’re not even close equally represented at 6% of CEOs and 20% of board positions and C suites being held by women. So when you think about the greatest challenge facing women as leaders, it’s kind of this chicken and egg problem of we need to see it to believe it.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right?

>> Julie Kratz: But we can’t get there if we’re not there. And so it’s kinda this, how do we leverage and get enough women, so that we have what we call critical mass? And critical mass is really important, that’s have around the 33% level. So, What we know to be true is when you get enough women into leadership positions so that they’re not the only one sitting around the table, or not the only one of two sitting around the table that there’s three or four sitting around a table and they happen to be around that 30% mark, things start to change. Their voices are heard more, they’re less likely to be interrupted. They’re also going to get credit for their ideas. A lot of the things facing women today is that they’ll share an idea, for example. And then in a male dominated setting, a man shares that same idea five minutes later, you may have experienced this, most women are like mm-hm.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yes, yes.

>> Julie Kratz: Mansplaining, it’s like that was my idea but if you speak up and you’re the only woman there saying that was my idea, we know the words that’we associate with that behavior.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right.

>> Julie Kratz: How dare she, what a [SOUND]. Men, they just don’t fight that same stereotype. So the underlying challenge beyond this is we need more for younger women to see it and believe it. But we also need to combat bias in the workplace so that women aren’t held back to the degree to which we know that they are held back today. So we’re really striving for that 33%. And that’s really going to be the tipping point. And are we anywhere close to that? Now in some organizations, I do have a couple of clients that are right at that mark and what they tell me one of my clients for example Cummins has a voice in this industry as well. And what they’ve told me is they set out on a very intentional journey. So 10 years ago, they put a line in the sand or more than 10 years now is a gender equality is important. And the reason it’s important is because we’re pretty much tapped out in developed countries. It’s a market share game. It’s not as much growth for us where we can really grow our businesses in developing countries. Well, guess what? In these developing countries, when you have women that are empowered and women leading in the communities, communities grow at much faster rates. So it’s business case. I mean, there’s a human case too. I think they deeply felt it was the right thing to do, but they weren’t anywhere close 10 plus years ago. Fast forward to today, they’re setting around 35% on their leadership team being female. And they did that intentionally and I often share with organizations, to set a goal of 5055 even 2025 at this point, it promotes this like zero sum game mentality. And we’re just promoting women to promote them, right? They’re actually not as talented and somehow void of the skills to get in there, which often is not true. But there’s a perception around women taking men’s jobs. And that’s not what this is about. This is about getting the pie bigger, so we’re not stealing one’s slice versus my slice versus your slice. We’re actually making that pie bigger so that there’s more seats at the table for everyone. And if we grow women alongside that, we know that your profitability is gonna be better. We know you’re gonna connect with your consumer base more.

>> Cathy Cunningham: That makes a lot of sense, Julie. I wanna talk about the book that your wrote, How Male Allies Support Women For Gender Equality. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah, yeah, it’d be my pleasure. Well, I’m excited about the work I’ve been doing the last couple of years as a result of the book. It’s really about involving allies in the conversation, so I spent the first few years of my business speaking at a lot of women’s conferences much like I am today. And I love women’s conferences. I think there’s a special place for women to come together and have a safe place to share and to really be seen, heard and feel like you belong.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah.

>> Julie Kratz: Which we know in male dominated industries, we don’t always get that feeling of belonging, which is a primal human need. So a few years ago, as I was speaking, I would look out into the crowd and I would start to see more and more men, and just a few at first. Now, there’s quite a few that are coming to the women’s conferences as our allies. But back then, I would go up and ask the curious guy in the front, you could tell he was just like, I’m so uncomfortable, but I’m here, I care.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah, right.

>> Julie Kratz: But I don’t wanna say or do the wrong thing, don’t-

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH] Don’t hurt me-

>> Julie Kratz: [LAUGH] And it was through this curiosity that I started interviewing these men, all around the country, different industries, functional areas, generations and they all have these like four things in common. And the first thing was empathy, that they really practiced empathy. So they may have had a daughter, a strong female figure growing up a mentor that was a woman. But they would tell me, oh my gosh, I have succeeded because of women in my life. I want to give back and help. And so that’s usually step one to being an ally is who are my sources of inspiration, who can i channel that empathy towards? And empathy is very distinct from sympathy. Sympathy is very unhelpful.

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH]

>> Julie Kratz: Right, and then Brené Brown, if anyone follows [INAUDIBLE] talks like this.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yes, absolutely.

>> Julie Kratz: And the big distinguishment between the the two is some of these is oh, woe is you, bless your heart, that kind of language. Where empathy is like, I’m so glad you shared that with me. How can I be helpful for you? I don’t know what that’s like but let me be supportive. And so our allies, they don’t put on their rescue caps.

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH]

>> Julie Kratz: To come and save us. You can watch countless fairy tales that got through that narrative. Right, super unhelpful, because it just teaches women to need men, and that not what this is about. This is about having somebody that can be as sounding bored and be there for you. And so empathy was huge, the second he attribute that we found is listening, listening to our stories. As women, we have a treasure troll of stories, and I think for women wanting to really own their careers, know where you’ve been, know where you are and know where you want to go. Men, you ask men where they’re going and what they want, they will just yak your ear off, they do not hold back from self-promotion. As women, we’re like well, I kind of want to do this, and I’m waiting for that opportunity. Yeah, someone’s gonna come and magically tap me on the shoulder and tell me that this is the dream job for me, and that’s not helpful either. So there are some things inside women that we have to self-promote in a way that’s authentic to us because when we are too confident, it can come off negatively. And we’re not confident enough, that also comes off negatively. So we have a really narrow tightrope that we’re walking. And then what men can do as allies is broaden that tightrope and give us a little bit more room to play so that we can be confident. We can share our story and we can promote ourselves in a way that resonates with the audience. And then the third piece is speaking up. So there’s a term called bro appropriations that surfaced in our research, everyone giggles when I say that like oh boy. What does this mean?

>> Cathy Cunningham: Ro-properations.

>> Julie Kratz: Yes. And actually I had male allies that told me about this term.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Never heard that term.

>> Julie Kratz: You can google it. It is a real thing. So essentially, it’s code for manslating, so manslating for men that might be listening if you don’t know what that is because I found a lot of men are like what, this is a thing, over explaining or under explaining something to a woman because she’s a woman. She couldn’t possibly understand this. I have to really explain it or hey, she can’t even figure it out. So I’m just not even gonna tell her. So that’s a little signal that you don’t belong. It stings. The second piece is taking credit for the idea which in this earlier this whole year an idea and a man gets credit for it because his voice, his vocal chords are actually louder than female vocal chords. So he’s more likely to be heard. And then the last piece of this is really about interruptions, and so we know that women are four times more likely to be interrupted than their male counterparts.


>> Julie Kratz: And so just putting your antennae up as an ally. And anyone could be an ally. We can all be allies for each other. Let’s just watch the room, watch a meeting room. Pay attention to whose voice is heard. Pay attention to who, when they say yes to an idea, it goes.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right.

>> Julie Kratz: That says a lot.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah. So let me just make sure. I wrote some notes here and I want to make sure I got this right. So empathy, listening, speaking up, and interruptions, those are the four things that our male allies can help us.

>> Julie Kratz: There’s actually a fourth one, so the interruptions kinda falls into that for appropriation category speaking of, but thank you for reminding me, the fourth one is around work and life integration. And I used the term integration because we know balance is really not achievable to have that as the standard. We know that women spend six more hours a week on average in the household care giving and doing household unpaid labor. Unpaid labor is not value added. I mean, think about laundry, homework supervision, getting the kids to school, picking them up from soccer practice. All these things are much more likely to fall on the female than the male. And as somebody that has a stay-at-home dad, for our family, I can tell you the perception of him doing some of these tasks is not well received. People will say things like, oh you the easiest job like you don’t do anything all day. And it’s really unfortunate that we have these biases that prevent men from being more involved as fathers. And also if mothers aren’t doing those roles, it’s like they’re doing something wrong. And then what really spells this out really nicely. Is asking the question of women leaders, they get asked all the time. How do you do it all? Can you imagine someone asking a male CEO that question?

>> Cathy Cunningham: How do you do it all? I know. That’s crazy.

>> Julie Kratz: We would never ask that question.

>> Cathy Cunningham: You know, it’s so interesting that you bring up this role of the men that are helping the women, the most helpful men and what the perception is of them. I had a personal experience. My husband does the grocery shopping in our house. And there was this woman that I was talking to and she was, are you kidding me? How does he even know what to do? How does he know his way around the grocery store? And I looked at her, we were both looking at each other like we had three heads. I’m like are you kidding me? It’s a grocery store and she’s looking at me like, he’s a man. How would he know how to do that? And so it’s not only the perception of other men of these men, it’s really all society of these men taking on some of these. I have this UPLs, unpaid labor.

>> Julie Kratz: Yes.

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH] That’s my acronym now, UPL.

>> Julie Kratz: Right, well.

>> Cathy Cunningham: It’s really very interesting.

>> Julie Kratz: And the research goes back to the tasks we set for little girls versus little boys, really making sure that gender roles don’t fit in here. Mowing the grass, for example, tends to happen to little boys versus little girls. We encourage them to do tasks inside the home like cleaning and putting away the dishes and things like that, but the research also shows us that we pay those tasks less than tasks for boys. That starts from a very young age.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right. Right.

>> Julie Kratz: And just being aware, step one to any of this is the awareness, right? When you see something, I would also encourage you to say something much like you did. He knows his way around the grocery store. Right? So he could learn that. That is not a female wired brain trait.

>> Cathy Cunningham: No, no, that’s crazy and you know you touched a little bit on the fact that we pay more for the things that men do versus women, and that’s the whole equal pay thing that’s happening now too. It’s not just if we have the same job we get paid the same, but it’s the kind of jobs that women have versus men. That is why we get paid less.

>> Julie Kratz: Sometimes what the research bears is that oftentimes and I see this with my clients a lot, it is the same position being paid less. I have had countless females come to me and say when they got promoted to being a manager of 13, they realized they were making less than the people that reported to them.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Oh my goodness.

>> Julie Kratz: Or the same amount.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Wow.

>> Julie Kratz: Well, to answer that question, what we know to be true is that yes, women do seek out jobs, like nursing versus doctors right, for example, and things like that. But actually there’s more women graduating from medical school now than men. Same goes for law school. And our education rates are much higher than our male counterparts. What actually is what we see happening is the same job is literally not being paid as well for a female versus a male. So the example I’ll give that my clients have shared, they didn’t even know that. There’s no transparency around pay, right? You may have pay bands, for example, but there’s so much room to play around with those annual increases. And what we know to be true is that women will tell me they didn’t even know they were making less money until they got promoted to managing a team and they found their direct reports made more than them or the same as them which is ridiculous. And it makes me feel awful. And what men will tell you is that makes them feel awful to you but that is not fair because I’m a man I get paid more like I want it to about my merit, the things I bring to the table.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right.

>> Julie Kratz: Not because of gender bias.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right. Isn’t that interesting? So I wanna touch back on what you were talking about, about women and self-promotion. I find that a very interesting topic. And for that reason, I always like to ask this question on my podcast. Julie, describe for us your personal brand and your leadership philosophy.

>> Julie Kratz: Mm-hm, yeah, my personal brand, I’ve worked hard on this. I believe in having a purpose statement. So that’s what I opened the interview with, is developing inclusive leaders, training and developing winning gameplans while promoting gender equality and overall equality actually in the workplace. It’s evolved over time. I think checking in on your personal brand and knowing the key messages the key words, for me, I’m a big believer and assessments and tools that I can get to better understand who I am, how I show up. I just was speaking at a conference Friday in Dallas, and they had alumina assessment which I’ve never taken before. And the words they did this word all with your words, competitive with the biggest one like oh, and I didn’t feel that thing about gender,

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right?

>> Julie Kratz: They didn’t feel good. Oh I’m a competitive, b-word woman like no but when I thought about it like yes, I am really competitive. I like to win. Yeah, it’s how it motivates me. I’m all about results and more about the vision and the details and getting the little things done. And so I think checking in with yourself knowing your brand, knowing your words. There’s an exercise I practice with my daughter who’s five, and Jane every night when she goes to bed, and we go through her words and she’s strong. She’s beautiful. She’s smart. She’s funny. We have added two new words to balance things out. And these are a little aspirational because she’s got a little work to do in these areas, but kindness be added, as well as bravery. There’s a lot of research that shows women are wired, we’re not wired, we are taught to be perfect, not brave. And so.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Hm.

>> Julie Kratz: Bravery can be the enemy of perfection.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right.

>> Julie Kratz: So, really teaching her to be brave and have courage, and asking her what she did that day to be brave. So my leadership philosophy is knowing yourself, authenticity is really at the core of it, and not in a way that’s like, yeah, I’m self aware but really owning it like owning those messages about your attributes your words and better or worse. Not everything is gonna be rainbow and sunshine, but think about what you bring to the table. Why people want you at the table, and own it. As women we are so fearful about giving ourselves a compliment.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right. Hi.

>> Julie Kratz: We do an exercise with women on strengths and weaknesses. It’s the SWOT analysis for yourself, strengths, weaknesses, opportunity, threats, they always start with the weaknesses.

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH]

>> Julie Kratz: No, and I would say timeout, before you go there, start with your strengths, and I went ten strengths, and you’re only allowed to put three weaknesses, and you can just see them grimacing.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right.

>> Julie Kratz: It’s like, why do we do that? Why do we beat ourselves up? It’s not a natural thing, there is no wiring in our brain that suggests, [LAUGH] our hormones, or whatever examples people give me. We are socialized, especially in this country, and globally, that we are there to serve others. We are there to please others, take care about others, and not ourselves, and so this leads to really unfortunate behavior in the workplace. And when you’re in a male-dominated workplace, you then have to learn a whole new set of rules.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Wow, yeah.

>> Julie Kratz: To work with men, so just be more confident, women get that feedback all the time. Don’t be so emotional, be confident. But I was told for 20-some years, to do those things. And now you just want me to flip a switch and be a man?

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right, well, it was so interesting, even just to watch your body language when you found out that you were assessed as being competitive. No, I’m not competitive.

>> Julie Kratz: [LAUGH]

>> Cathy Cunningham: But why is that a bad thing? That’s a good thing.

>> Julie Kratz: Right.

>> Cathy Cunningham: I remember when I did an assessment like that and I found out that I was very, very much into control, into [LAUGH] controlling situations.

>> Julie Kratz: [LAUGH]

>> Cathy Cunningham: And at that time, it was really funny, because my business partner went, I called him up and I said, Jim, you’ll never guess, I’m very high into control. He said, oh, yeah, I knew that. [LAUGH] Isn’t it funny how you show it to the close people in your life?

>> Julie Kratz: I instantly sent the image to my best friend who helps me in my business and my husband, and they’re like, duh.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah, exactly, duh, yeah, we all know that, you just didn’t know that.

>> Julie Kratz: And so think about that as your personal brand, own it.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Exactly.

>> Julie Kratz: People already know, you’re not hiding anything.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right.

>> Julie Kratz: When you own it, people really respond to that sense of self-awareness.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah.

>> Julie Kratz: It’s attractive.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah, and we do this assessment in our office, and everybody takes it. We even have our clients take it, and it’s called the color test. And what’s really great is you can figure out whether you are an ask or a tell, or people in a task. And what’s really interesting as a team exercise is because there are some people that are the total opposite of you that want details, and then there’s other people that go on their gut. And so you need to know that, and then there’s the people that want consensus, and then there’s the people like me that make a decision and with the bottom line. And so once you’re more self aware of your own communication style, then you understand others. And that that theirs isn’t a weakness and yours isn’t a weakness, it’s just that it’s different. And so that’s when you being to build rapport with people, and really understanding yourself helps you understand other people too.

>> Julie Kratz: I agree, I agree, there’s so many assessments out there, it sounds similar to the disk assessment I used to [CROSSTALK]. And when you know someone’s style, you’re like, oh, it’s not about me. It’s about them and how they communicate, but guess what? I can behave differently, flex my style to meet people where they’re at, and I’ll get a better result.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Mm-hm, right, right, which I think is really the importance of that lesson, is that you don’t wanna change yourself. You wanna be able to understand who you are and adapt your style to get the impact that you’re looking for.

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah, yeah, and the most successful leaders do that so seamlessly, and they stay authentic to themselves, but they know when they need to take a step back, give someone time to process it.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right.

>> Julie Kratz: [LAUGH] And they know when they need to speed up, okay, this person’s really decisive, go, go, go! This person really likes details, I’m gonna get really detailed, which by the way, is the hardest thing for me to flex to.

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH] Yeah.

>> Julie Kratz: My head starts spinning at detail number three, I don’t know. I can’t, my biggest problem is finding out where to be at what time, [LAUGH] so I really appreciated the communication we’ve had and where to meet today.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah, yeah, it’s true, I know, I’m right there with you. Well, that that’s been really great. So thank you for sharing your personal brand. Let’s talk a little bit about marketing. Speaking of brands, is there a stand-out brand that you’re following that maybe we can learn a lesson from them on how they’re marketing to women, or just someone that’s just doing a good job of branding?

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah, yeah, when I think about the clients I work with, and those that are truly inclusive and really promoting a gender balanced message, and there’s interesting things happening from an ad perspective right now, and it’s bringing up a lot of controversy. But I think we’re at a real turning point where some governments are getting involved in gender bias ads, in the UK, they’ve outlawed, for example. Gillette has done a good job of talking about men and vulnerability.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Depending on who you ask.

>> Julie Kratz: Exactly, very controversial, not everyone’s okay with that. And some of it, toxic masculinity has been perceived a bit negatively, I don’t love the word toxic, so I can understand why. But it’s really freeing. Oh my gosh, I don’t have to stuff my emotions and if I cry, it doesn’t make me less of a man. And how we handle masulinity in this country is just beyond me sometimes. It’s not fair to men, but those that are getting it right, with messaging to women, to truly being inclusive of women. I would think the one that kinda comes to mind, I mentioned Cummens before and how they’re building women programs internally, which by the way, if you wanna be externally communicating to women and equality, start internally for first.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Oh, wow, there’s a concept.

>> Julie Kratz: The employee experience then can become the customer experience, but you can’t do that if you’re not balanced in terms of work on inside first and then outside can come.

>> Cathy Cunningham: So tell us about Cummens, what do they do as a brand?

>> Julie Kratz: Well, they’re really strong in developing women, specifically, because they want more women leaders. So in the STEM field, most people know, it’s a relatively low graduation rate in computer science degrees and technology degrees. So STEM stands for science, technology-

>> Cathy Cunningham: Engineering,

>> Julie Kratz: Engineering, yes, thank you, which is what they’re focused on, [LAUGH] and math, right? And there’s an A sometimes for art, I know. But anyway, there has been a huge push for that, so companies that are getting involved in STEM programs, they start early. What they know is you need to start in middle school to get girls to see themselves in those roles, because then they go to high school, to computer science class, and it’s all dudes and just them, they’re like, every signal that I’m getting here is that I don’t belong.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right.

>> Julie Kratz: And there is the infamous like hoodie guy that’s in tech. We joke about this image of the guy that’s like hammering away on his keyboard. And women see that and they’re like, I don’t wanna be that person. [LAUGH] And so I think getting involved early on, early education, and then having leadership tracks specifically for women. The other client I work with, Salesforce, has done a great job.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Sure.

>> Julie Kratz: We’re fortunate in Indiana, they had been co-headquartered in Indianapolis, they really changed our community, being way more progressive when we had legislation passed that was very exclusionary towards gays. Businesses could actually decide not to work with you. This was several years ago, but Salesforce actually met the leader and said we’re writing a memo, this is not okay, we will pull out of this community if you do something like that. And they really stand for getting more women involved in technology as well. I’ve spoken with their women’s resource group, and they’re really championing these concepts, confidence, women as leaders, having an invested interest in an intentional map of activities they do to promote those skills. And they also are very active about talking about allies, allies for equality, so somewhat ahead of the game, but they’ve still got a ton of work to do. They’re not reflecting their customer base, either. Even with the best of intentions, this is a journey, it’s not a destination.

>> Cathy Cunningham: So it’s sounds like brands really need to be intentional and they also need to start internally with any kind of change.

>> Julie Kratz: Yeap, yeap, yeap.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Let’s talk a little bit about the Internet and social media. Communication is rapidly changing. How is that affecting the conversation, and how women are seen in marketing?

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Anything that you wanna talk about with regards to that?

>> Julie Kratz: Well, thinking about automotive and your industry, the best ad I’ve seen in forever that went viral on social media, it was a Super Bowl ad couple years ago by Audi. Do you remember this one of the girl racing in a box car?

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yes, yes.

>> Julie Kratz: And the father watching on, I mean, I watched that so many times cring, so emotional for me we talk about bravery, courage, a male ally champion. Someone that’s teaching her not to be perfect, to take risks, and to be brave. It really touched my heart. And I told my husband after I watched that, my next car is an Audi, I don’t care how much they cost.

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH]

>> Julie Kratz: That’s a good ad. Because conversely you see ads of men that can’t, and we talked about figuring out a grocery store, for example. There’s constantly this image of a man that can’t figure out a car seat or somehow he’s just inept at handling children. Anyone can figure out a car seat. He doesn’t have to be overwhelmed like the Homer Simpson tyoe that’s like duh I can’t figure this out. That’s not fair to men.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah.

>> Julie Kratz: And I see that in ads a lot and it’s troubling.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah, yeah.

>> Julie Kratz: That is propagating as stereotype that’s very unhelpful and often even untrue.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Mm-hm.

>> Julie Kratz: And so to think about social media and how we can leverage that as a tool, there’s a great campaign called He For She for example, that the United Nations started several years ago. It actually was a huge influence for me starting my own business. Cuz I was scared to death to start my own business and I had one-year-old and being the breadwinner, it was not a good time. But when I watched Emma Watson in the He for She campaign that she launched many years ago, I thought wow, this is the right way to do it. Feminism often happened with women talking to women, and primarily white women talking to white women about women’s challenges. What was I think somewhat effective about awareness, it has not brought the resutlts.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Mm-hm.

>> Julie Kratz: The statistics are very much unchanged since the 1980s and 70s when women actually entered the workforce and were the majority of you. But what we know works really well is when you get men involved in the conversation, it goes up 3X. So the success rates of women’s initiatives inside companies, when men are involved, go up 3X. So something like hashtag HeForShe, I know there’s so many more out there. I use allies for equality, I talk about male allies, hashtag. So you can follow those hashtags. There’s a wonderful hashtag on Twitter, if you like Twitter, FlipItToTestIt. So you take all these images of men doing feminine things and they have really clever questions about them. A man washing the dishes. Oh, thank you so much for your support, you’re such a great husband. Now, flip it to test it. If there’s a woman doing dishes, are we saying the same thing?

>> Cathy Cunningham: Exactly, exactly.

>> Julie Kratz: It’s hilarious, and they do it other diverse categories like Native Americans and people of color. And so it just, it really brings home the stereotypes and the biases in a way that’s non-confrontational. Yep, I’ve done that, what if a dad when he picks up his own children from soccer practice, they’re his kids too and it’s not babysitting your, you cannot babysit your own children.

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH]

>> Julie Kratz: [LAUGH]

>> Cathy Cunningham: Well, I think it’s so interesting. Your concept is that it’s the male allies. And I really like that in this conversation because what you’re saying is that women’s initiatives have three times better success rate when we get male allies involved and when we have the conversation.

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah.

>> Cathy Cunningham: And I think maybe you’re talking about feminism movement, I’m not sure if it was much of a conversation, it might’ve been a one-way conversation. And so what you’re really saying is we need to have a real conversation in order to elevate this.

>> Julie Kratz: I agree, I agree.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Very interesting.

>> Julie Kratz: When you get people involved and listen to their input and let them have a safe place to share their own perspective and their story, they’re far more likely to be supportive of it.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Mm-hm.

>> Julie Kratz: And so really having a dialogue about these things and making sure if you have a women’s group inside your organization, for example, make sure the allies are engaged. And they don’t have to come to every event and program, I’m not saying that. There’s a need right now for women to have a safe place to share and to be with women.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah.

>> Julie Kratz: However, could you twice a year every other meeting invite your allies and be strategic about who you invite, why you invited them, and what you’re helping them to learn, to gain and what support you want from them. And because we know a woman’s journey through corporate America is vast starkly different than a man’s perspective of his career, and when he’s enlightened that like what, that happened to you?

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH]

>> Julie Kratz: I think of the MeToo movement.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah.

>> Julie Kratz: So many men were like, I didn’t know this was a thing, I thought this was done.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah, well, you know what, and so many women didn’t know it either.

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah, myself included.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Nobody was talking about it.

>> Julie Kratz: I didn’t have those experiences. And then I would sit down with people and have coffee and they would tell me their story. And there were some very, very unfortunate stories that were shared. And I would just listen with empathy and I would say well, it didn’t seem to me like it’s happened. And then it’s funny when people say, well, did this happen to you, did this? I’m like, oh, well, yeah. Yeah, Julie, that’s a thing.

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH]

>> Julie Kratz: That wasn’t okay when a man said that to you or touched you. Instead you kinda get used to it. Even in the early 2000s when I was working in corporate America. I just got used to it, I just thought that was part of it. And I think we had a real reckoning of awakening of, no, there are boundaries now.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah.

>> Julie Kratz: You can’t cross them.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Mm-hm.

>> Julie Kratz: And men are actually retreating from the conversation and it is kinda the equivalent of like, I’m gonna take my marbles and leave.

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH]

>> Julie Kratz: Not all men but we know 63% of men feel uncomfortable working alone with women now, and that was not as bad last year, was not as bad before the MeToo movement. So we got some work to do, right, and engaging them and saying, hey, I like to joke, fourth grade. What did you learn about respecting people, touching people, don’t touch people that don’t wanna be touched, in perspective, it actually hasn’t changed. This is still the rule.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right.

>> Julie Kratz: So just if you honor that, you’re not gonna get in trouble.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right. Well, finding out about ally, I was so excited in that I found a male ally in one of the dealerships that we’re working with, and it was just last week. Cuz I was telling him about women in automotive and that I was coming here, and I said it would be really great if we could get your manager. They have a sales manager there’s a female to come to this. I think that would be great because her and I have this other sales lady and I have two people in the service drive, two women in the service drive. He goes, they’re my secret sauce, because what they do is they balance out this male communication style that we have in the dealership. And so they really balanced the whole conversation out. And so now I know what an ally looks like inside. And so you can’t change everybody’s minds, but you can work with the people that understand what of benefit this is, just like you started out in your conversation. Inclusion and diversity really help business, really bring a different point of view and they can differentiate your company from other companies if you’re doing it right. Yeah.

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah, that was a great example, I felt the yin yang effect.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah.

>> Julie Kratz: It’s not about having all women running the company. I’ve seen that and that doesn’t go well.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Sure.

>> Julie Kratz: All men doesn’t, either.

>> Cathy Cunningham: No.

>> Julie Kratz: It’s the balancing that we can do for one another and our different communication styles and skills that we can bring to the table. So absolutely, I think those secret weapons, right? Having that secret sauce. The more people find out about that, they get a little jealous. Well, I want that, too.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Exactly.

>> Julie Kratz: That means you’re going to have to modify what you’re doing now, cuz I’ll hear this often, well, we want more women we just can’t find them, you’re not looking hard enough.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Or, building an environment in which they can grow in.

>> Julie Kratz: Well, inclusion actually comes before diversity.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right?

>> Julie Kratz: So we started with the term diversity 10, 15 years ago, companies that were pretty progressive got chief diversity officers. Now their diversity and inclusion officers now there’s this evolution of belonging, [INAUDIBLE] part officers. [LAUGH] This is really going after the same thing. But you have to have an inclusive workspace to be able to recruit, and more importantly, retain that top diverse talent. Cuz with women, you ask them why they really left a company, we ask them on exit interviews and they’ll tell you the real reason cuz who would like what are you gonna gain from that you’re already out the door?

>> Cathy Cunningham: Mm-hm.

>> Julie Kratz: But if you ask them why they really left, it is almost always because that this idea of work and life integration that they just couldn’t do both serious with their life well, it rude comments signals that they didn’t belong there called micro aggressions of, you’re not really part of, you’re different than us. And then the third piece, that I think women are missing purpose in the work. We talked about this, that’s really step one in your leadership journey. What do you want, where do you wanna be? Cuz your male counterpart, he knows where he wants to be in three years. And he’s telling everybody that will listen. So of course he’s gonna get promoted to that position.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Mm-hm.

>> Julie Kratz: And then people look at you and you don’t express what you want. You might hold back and people are unclear about how to put you in a position where you’re gonna be successful. So again, it’s a journey.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yes, it is. Let let’s talk about your journey a little bit. Owning a business and being a woman in business, can you talk about a personal learning experience or a time in the situation in your career where you faced a professional obstacle and how you overcame it?

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah, yeah, I had an experience early in my career, I think this was kinda my awakening to gender equality. I’d studied women’s studies in college. And I was raised by a pretty strong woman, a single mother, did everything. And she had told me the world was equal, that her generation had taken care of it for us, blazed the trail, burned the bras, it’s all done. And so I naively went into corporate America thinking my mom was right.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Uh-huh.

>> Julie Kratz: She wouldn’t lie to me.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Uh-huh.

>> Julie Kratz: And so for the first six months, I mean, well, the first day, I was the only woman with ten men in this leadership development program at Caterpillar. And it was like, oh, okay, this is what this looks like. Certainly there’s more women somewhere in this organization and yeah, they were in HR, yeah, work marketing, but they weren’t in the areas I worked in. And six months in I had this moment, right looked at I remember printing off the org chart for some reason. I was just curious about who the leaders were, so you had the CEO, the group presidents and the vice presidents, it was roughly 37 leaders at that time. And I remember being a gas looking back at that and seeing just one female who happened to lead my division, the logistics division, but when I got to know that leader and I spent just 15 minutes with her, I asked to spend some time with her. She had very masculine behaviors, looked very masculinely. When I asked her what it was like to be a woman leader here, she said just don’t think of yourself as a woman. And I know what she was trying to say, but as a young woman that was trying to find her way in corporate America and to see back to this whole you gotta see it to believe it, that’s not what I want, I do not wanna be you someday, and if that’s what that looks like here. So I ended up staying another three and a half years, but great experiences. I loved the culture there and I really was given some amazing opportunities to lead operations in some very male-dominated fields and that company and definitely grew, hardest jobs I ever had leading a union workforce out here on third shift. They have never worked for a woman. I mean it was just, can you imagine?

>> Cathy Cunningham: There’s a whole book there I’m sure.

>> Julie Kratz: Very mungeony guys that are just like what, they’re just like-

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH]

>> Julie Kratz: And then you get to know them and they would kinda loosen up and they trust you a little bit sometime.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Sure.

>> Julie Kratz: But all that to say this, I mean, I think for me, I knew six months in this corporate world just isn’t for me, but I’d been told that was the path to success. And I’d studied business and so I continued to keep trying that, I went back to business school, got my MBA and then finished out my career in corporate and consulting. And after all that time, 12 years, I love the perspective I can have now my, speaking and training business but that was not the work that fueled me. It was not a purposeful work and so it took 12 years of pain. Your Monday mornings not feeling good and wrestling with what do I wanna do and what is next and so my real purpose in the work I do now is to help make that easier for women so they don’t have to go through those pains and challenges, there’s always a spot for us. We just have to kinda like hold up the mirror and look at ourselves and really be introspective to get there. Doesn’t just hit us like a lightning bolt.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah. And it sounds like if you would have had more of an example within corporate America, you would have been more comfortable and then you could have found a purpose.

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah, yeah.

>> Cathy Cunningham: And so that’s what you’re really working towards.

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah. Well, and I always thought my mentors had to be women, too. I have to tell women, seek out male mentors. Eventually I did end up finding some amazing male allies actually at Caterpillar in my consulting days, two allies I still go to for advice and coaching today. But yes, seek out male and female mentors’ perspectives, just think about people you wanna be like someday and spend some time with them, when you start to have, you pick up what they’re putting down, you pick up those skills and tell them.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right, right. Do you have a mentoring story that you could tell us? Maybe a lesson that you learned through a mentor and how you applied to help you become the successful business person you are today?

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah, I love sharing this story. I just interviewed my mentor on my podcast, the Pivot Point podcast if your listeners are interested, her name is Loraine and we have this funny story a year and a half ago we started, we met. And I was leading a women’s development program with Key Bank who does also a great job with women and she was in the group. And at the end, I said, Loraine, I really admire your perspective. Would you be a mentor for me? And she looked me square in the eyes and said, no, I don’t have enough time for that. Not the response I wanted, so I kept trying. I said, okay, would you just review my business plan for next year? Just look at it, she said, okay. So we met at her office, went through the business plan and she looks at me at the end and she says, okay, if you do this every time you come to see me, we’re good, you can come back next month. She’s just a real direct New Yorker, and I really appreciate that, somebody that doesn’t [UNKNOWN] we just get right to the chase.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right.

>> Julie Kratz: So every month since, and I think it’s a year and a half later, I go through my business results from my business plan. That’s step one, and she pokes at me. This month she said I was sandbagging my sales number.

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH]

>> Julie Kratz: Like sometimes, like, you care more than I do.

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH]

>> Julie Kratz: Get out of my business, lady.

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH]

>> Julie Kratz: But no, she’s just given me so many amazing ideas and now I’ve actually had the chance These relationships usually go for full circle but she gives me an hour a month. But I actually just engaged her team to redo my website and just relaunched my website. And was able to compensate her and her team for that and recommend others. So these relationships. Oftentime you find you give and the universe has a way of finding that gives back to you. May not happen immediately. So I’m a big believer of being very intentional. Your allies, if you ask someone to be your mentor. To have an objective, tell them what I want to learn from you, and show up intentionally every time. I have three ideas every time that I want her input on in my business metrics, that’s the flow. It’s a very effective use of her time. There is another material relationships that the people don’t show up with like, okay, what do you want to talk about today? No one has time for that.

>> Cathy Cunningham: That is such a great lesson, Julie. Just show up prepared. If you are going to ask someone to be a mentor, be prepared to be mentored. And you have your ducks in a row and be prepared to take the information in because that is your mentor’s job, to poke at you and to make you feel uncomfortable, right?

>> Julie Kratz: Right, [LAUGH]. That’s how we grow.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Exactly, well, that’s great. So, just to sorta wrap this up again, being here at Women in Automotive here in Orlando, and thank you so much for your time. Gosh, you’ve shared so many great lessons, I’m so happy to have you on the show. What do you see as the most significant challenge for the automotive industry in adapting to the changing markets and really attracting and retaining female professionals.

>> Julie Kratz: Yeah, yeah. I mean again, having spent time in that industry many years ago and now spending a lot of time with clients in this industry. I think we’re really at a pivotal point, pun intended to the point, where, I read again, my clients, first thing I do is I pull up their seats, they’re bored, the faces of the leaders of the company. And in all of my automotive clients I have to say, I have yet to meet one that has more than one female on that team. And that’s just my select few that I’ve worked with that’s probably why they’re engaging me because they want to get better at it. So I think we’re at this pivot point of one is not enough, even two is not enough. We need to be more intentional, more strategic about how we bring women into the workforce and how we develop them into leadership roles. And also, to say that it’s an automotive industry problem is just not fair. It’s a problem everywhere. I do think the unique nuances you have as an industry as women are sent signals from 10 year little girls that cars are for boys to play around with, not for girls. And so how do you undo that wiring?

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah.

>> Julie Kratz: I got Jane a remote control car. I said, you will play with this, not just dolls. She likes dolls, though. I gotta say, I really tried. Like, how do you? How do you get inside? Young people, just like Salesforce. I gave you that example on comments going to young women and helping them understand. You can play with cars. Automotive industry could be for you, keep an open mind to mechanical engineering. These roles that we know to be necessary as maps for the future. So get them in young but I think too, starting the legwork now of setting goals and measuring. What does diversity, inclusion, equality, gender equality look like at our organization? Where do we want to be, just like Cummins did. How can we get to 33% faster, right? And what does that look like for us, why? Why do we care about this, what’s the business space?

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah, what’s the benefit? I think that’s so interesting. You talk about, we think that cars are for boys. When I was talking to one of my dealers the other day, the service manager. And I was asking him, again, about women in the service drive, and they don’t have any right now. And he said, I would love to get some women in my service drive, but they don’t think that they belong here. And he said, the funny thing is, Kathy, is that my male service advisors don’t know anything about cars either. Cuz you don’t have to know about cars. You have to know about service. And it’s a service business. And so I thought it was so enlightening to me. I was like, really? They don’t? I didn’t even know that. So it’s a matter of us sharing this information and opening up these job opportunities to women and letting them know that yes, you do belong here. Everyone belongs here

>> Julie Kratz: right. Well, and that’s so deep a core to this message is belonging. That is a primal need of all humans. And so when women walk into a dealership or a room of mechanics and you’re the only woman. Every single time, it’s exhausting.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah.

>> Julie Kratz: And having to cover, be more masculine, I mean caterpillar walking the shop floors. I had male boots on, they didn’t even make female steel-toed boots. I had a male jacket on cuz they didn’t make the Caterpillar jacket in female sizes. I kept my hair back, I took all my jewelry off. For safety, but still. I mean, when I look back at myself, I looked like a dude. I didn’t even look like myself. I like to wear dresses.

>> Cathy Cunningham: [LAUGH]

>> Julie Kratz: And so just thinking about how people can be their full selves at work.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Right.

>> Julie Kratz: And how you can create an environment where, just like you said, we’ll teach you the skills. You can teach the skills. It’s the motivations, it’s that sense of belonging being drawn to the work that you can’t teach somebody. And we know if they had more women just like the other example you said balancing out men, they would be performing at a higher level. So missing out.

>> Cathy Cunningham: So many benefits, such a such a rich conversation, and one that I look forward to continuing to have. Last quick question, do you have a daily habit or two that contributes to your success?

>> Julie Kratz: Oh, this is one that I’ve fallen of the wagon on, so perfect timing. My 25 minute T-25 workout and my yoga, I am a different person when I don’t do that. So, in the morning, just getting up half an hour earlier to drink my lemon water, so I drink two big glasses of lemon water every morning. Then I do my workout, and if I don’t have enough time for the full one, I just tell myself I’ll go as long as I can, and just stop it. But I am a better person when I get active first thing in the day. I have more energy. When I speak, it makes a huge difference when I do those things versus when I don’t do those things. And just to pause and to journal and kick things out of my brain, you get it down on paper and especially positive things. How will I help someone today?

>> Cathy Cunningham: Yeah.

>> Julie Kratz: What will I learn today? Things like that, asking myself those questions. I just show up better, in a better mentality, I have so much more energy than I did if I didn’t do them.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Well great, thanks so much for sharing. I know you’re speaking later on today. I look forward to seeing you on the stage, and hearing your inspiration and words of wisdom. So thanks for sharing some of that wth us today with us.

>> Julie Kratz: Such a pleasure to be here. I’m excited to speak at the conference, and so wonderful what you’re doing for women in the industry.

>> Cathy Cunningham: Thank you and thank you everybody for listening. And we’ll have our complete show notes on the website and you can go up there and find out more about Julie and her company Pivot Point, thanks everybody.

Back To Top